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2703 Views 21 Replies Latest reply: Oct 31, 2012 12:17 PM by kourtvizion RSS
robbierocket Master 3,521 posts since
May 31, 2011

Will the true TDM Standings please stand up!

Posted by robbierocket on Sep 6, 2012 10:27 AM

_________________________________________________________

 

[For this thread I would like to ackowledge the input from forum veteran, Grayewsable]

 

This thread is about 2-team TDM final standings;

1. How they have been presented for 5 CODs.

2. A simple version to represent TDM objective.

3. The way I think they should be presented, which serves everyone.

 

Below are the 3 ways of displaying an end of match team standings of 2 teams, A & B.

(The results and players are fictional, Team B won by 75-58 kills).

________________________________________________________

 

1. CURRENT METHOD

Team A
Score
Kills
Deaths
Ratio
Assists
[US]Thunda18201728  0.613
JayHitman144013  7  1.862
[BARK]Dogi12201210  1.201
[Pd]Barsola  850  815  0.531
Barsola(2)  500  515  0.330
Jezebellah  300  3  0  3.000
Team B




[95]LukeJedi192018  8  2.253
[74]Gandalf190018  118.002
[74]Legend156015  2  7.501
[barf]yoropa12401226  0.461
[69]Dusman1140  7  3  2.337
[barf]Ambes  400  318  0.172

 

+ format is familiar to all

- standings not in order of TDM objective (kills minus deaths)

- standings order based only on kills & assists (not deaths)

- provides misinformation of TDM effectiveness

_________________________________________________________

 

 

2. A SIMPLE OBJECTIVE-BASED METHOD

Team A

Net

K

K
D
A
Ratio

Team B

Net

K

K
D
A
Ratio
JayHitman
+  613  7  2  1.86
[74]Gandalf+1718  1  218.00
Jezebellah+  3  3  0  0  3.00
[74]Legend+1315  2  1  7.50
[BARK]Dogi+  21210  1  1.20
[95]LukeJedi+1018  8  3  2.25
[Pd]Barsola-   7  815  1  0.53
[69]DusMan+  4  7  3  7  2.33
Barsola(2)- 10  515  0  0.33
[barf]yoropa- 141226  1  0.46
[US]Thunda- 111728  3  0.61
[barf]Ambes- 15  318  2  0.17

 

+ standings ordered to TDM objective: kills minus deaths (Net Kills)

+ format is clear & puts TDM-related objective in the first column

+ teams are compared side by side

- assists are not counted towards ordering of standings

- lack of "score" may upset people

________________________________________________________

 

 

3. A LOGICAL PRESENTATION OF TDM STANDINGS

Team A

lost (57)

Pts
K

D

K-D

net

K/D

ratio

A
XP

Team B

won (75)

Pts
K
D

K-D

net

K/D

ratio

A
XP
JayHitman+ 74013  7+ 6 1.8621440
[74]Gandalf+180018  1+1718.0021900
Jezebellah+ 300  3  0+ 3 3.000  300
[74]Legend+136015  2+13  7.5011560
[BARK]Dogi+ 2201210+ 2 1.2011220
[95]LukeJedi+  92018  8+10  2.2531920
[Pd]Barsola-  650  815-  7 0.531  850
[69]DusMan+  840  7  3+  4  2.3371140
[US]Thunda-  9801728-11 0.6131820
[barf]yoropa- 13601226-14  0.4611240
Barsola(2)-1000  515-10 0.330  500
[barf]Ambes- 1400  318-15  0.172  400

 

Note:

- As with previous tables I've used 20-80 points for an assist (like WAW & BO).

- BOII's UAV assists (10pts) could be added to regular assists (A).

- All positive points highlighted in light green, most effective for match (MVP) in dark green.

- All negative points highlighted in peach.

  (Red could be used for least effective player in match but this may seem too derogatory).

 

+ standings ordered by TDM objective related points (K-D net + A)

+ format is clear and TDM-related objective is in first column

+ Pts are present as well as K-D net

+ Colour is used to highlight TDM effectiveness

+ teams are compared side by side

+ XP shown & based only on "positive actions" (kills & assists)

   (every player develops and no player "loses progress")

______________________________________________________

 

 

I wish someone at Treyarch would review this.

2703 Views      Tags: kills, final, points, objective, team, tdm, ratio, deathmatch, score, deaths, standings, net, assits
  • Grayewsable Expert 942 posts since
    Apr 29, 2012
    Currently Being Moderated
    Grayewsable     Sep 6, 2012 8:23 AM (in response to robbierocket)

    ¡Viva la Revolución!

    • robbierocket Master 3,521 posts since
      May 31, 2011
      Currently Being Moderated
      robbierocket     Sep 6, 2012 1:43 AM (in response to Grayewsable)

      ...and the revolution starts now (because I've just edited all the data and tables so no screen scrolling is required!).

       

      Everybody check this thread out!

      • jonthebeserker Apprentice 523 posts since
        May 28, 2012
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        jonthebeserker     Sep 11, 2012 1:54 AM (in response to robbierocket)

        100% agree on this TDM should not be most kills = winner. It must be kill ratio. It doesn't make sense that the guy who goes 15 k 15 d winds the game compared to the guy who has 14k 1 d.

        • robbierocket Master 3,521 posts since
          May 31, 2011
          Currently Being Moderated
          robbierocket     Sep 11, 2012 2:36 AM (in response to jonthebeserker)

          Almost, change kill ratio to net kills and you're right.

           

          (by the same token that 15-15 should not be above 14-1, a 3-0 should not be above 30-11).

  • arlothion Master 301 posts since
    Jun 1, 2011
    Currently Being Moderated
    arlothion     Sep 6, 2012 1:56 AM (in response to robbierocket)

    I like the idea but think it will take up to much horizontally of the screen, thats why i believe they do it the other way. so even some one on a 15Inch screen can still see it all with out putting his eye to the screen.

     

    Lovely idea would love to see it implemented that way

    • robbierocket Master 3,521 posts since
      May 31, 2011
      Currently Being Moderated
      robbierocket     Sep 6, 2012 3:06 AM (in response to arlothion)

      So display the teams on top of each other, as now. That's the least of the concerns.

       

      It's all about:

      - correct order of standings

      - easy to see explanation of why

      - helpful stuff like visualisation of effectiveness (+ - & colours)

      • arlothion Master 301 posts since
        Jun 1, 2011
        Currently Being Moderated
        arlothion     Sep 6, 2012 2:05 AM (in response to robbierocket)

        I was just saying why such Standing's like this may have not been used before because it brilliantly clear to see. but with everything they do, there's still reason's why they can do not do it.

         

        Why they don't use idea's at times i do not know but i think they should be more vocal on here,

  • robbierocket Master 3,521 posts since
    May 31, 2011
    Currently Being Moderated
    robbierocket     Sep 6, 2012 5:36 AM (in response to robbierocket)

    Let's look at the positives of my presentation and some examples from the game.

     

    Gandalf brought in +17 kills and quite rightly is awarded MVP. He's given the opposition just 1 kill (via his lone death) and equalled the highest kills achieved in the match. He's also bagged a fair amount of XP.

     

    Jayhitman came in only 5th on score (6th on kills) but rightly sits atop his teams list as the biggest resistance to the opposition. He went +6 which in a match lost by almost 20 is a fair game.

     

    LukeJedi grabbed the most XP by doing more killing+assisting than anyone else but although he went positive with net kills and is "in the green" he sits only 3rd on his team due to dropping more points to the opposition (deaths) than either Legend or Gandalf.

     

    Thunda looks like what you may call a red dot chaser or wreckless run & gunner (meaning there are talented run & gunners too). His net kills of -11 is lowest on his team but the 3 assists elevate him to 5th on the team. His work for an active game is rewarded by having the 3rd highest XP in the match, only just behind LukeJedi and Gandalf (MVP). This allows players to rip their way through TDM and up levels as they please. It allows weaker players to progress and enjoy scoring XP for positive actions without being punished for negatives (the same as now). However, with the standings revised he can see why he sits low down, even with 17 kills... it's the 28 deaths - well over a third of the team's deaths on just one player (a sixth of the team).

     

    Dusman has curiously played well in a support role and bagged 7 assists. His K/D is better than Luke Jedi's but that doesn't mean anything here, just net kills, which is lower, just +4 compared to +10. However his efforts for support (and 7 assists) have meant that his score is almost as high as LukeJedi's.

     

    Jezebellah is an interesting one. Usually someone coming in late in a game would have a 3-0 like she does, but who knows, she may have played extremely cautiously or hidden for most of the match. Perhaps a needed toilet break and she lay her soldier down in a corner. So she sits 2nd on her team, rightly so, she had net kills of +3 and gave the opposition not one single point (no deaths). Is she encouraged to sit tight next game? Not really. She has the lowest XP of all 12 players (300) which amounts to progress over 6 times slower than Thunda (who took 1820 XP). Her team also lost and so we see that high K/Ds (it is infinite but listed as 3.00 in COD) and zero deaths don't mean much when your net kills are so close to zero. In a game won by 18 kills, a +3 is not game-changing.

     

    Lastly, note the split-screeners, Barsola and Barsola(2) combining for 13-30 (-17). I put that in to maintain realism in COD.

    • arlothion Master 301 posts since
      Jun 1, 2011
      Currently Being Moderated
      arlothion     Sep 6, 2012 5:30 AM (in response to robbierocket)

      I know you said you would not lose progress, but is the specfic to both exp and score, because people will not want to lose score no matter what. "ambes" looks like he would lose 1400 score. you have to remember most cod players don't have agreat understanding of new things.

       

      Overall i do like the idea, but i think its far to late for it to come into black ops 2

      • robbierocket Master 3,521 posts since
        May 31, 2011
        Currently Being Moderated
        robbierocket     Sep 6, 2012 6:52 AM (in response to arlothion)

        Score is just "game score" it is nothing to do with any kind of cumulative scoring. People will see that when the XP rolls in on the following screen.

         

        It can be worded "Game Score" or whatever.

        You could even start every player on 5000 or 10 000 or whatever so that they would NEVER go negative. It is not about how much the value is, it is only about how much it is relative to other players. Like I said, after one game it is gone. Even if the average is kept, its only a performance level from facts.

         

        If someone has a K/D of below 1.00 then whether you understand that or not, its a fact that you die more than you kill. Even the Player Card on Black Ops showed K/Ds below 1.00 on the graph as RED. It's a negative to see 20 kills and 22 deaths, even if you don't have the "-" there, it's just a fact.

         

        There are so many ways to present it. I don't care if score or net kills are not presented but are hidden - they exist anyway. I see them right away and a lot of TDM players also do that, they say, "Look I went +5, he went -10, but because you went +7 as well we still won".

         

        It's what decides TDM, its the facts. That's all.

         

        I'm so tired of things being dummed down or misinformation because this is just self-perpetuating.

         

        No way ever should 2-team TDM put 18-32 at the top ahead of 17-0, 15-5, 13-8, 12-12 or even 10-23. It's misleading.

      • Grayewsable Expert 942 posts since
        Apr 29, 2012
        Currently Being Moderated
        Grayewsable     Sep 6, 2012 8:37 AM (in response to arlothion)

        arlothion wrote:

         

        Overall i do like the idea, but i think its far to late for it to come into black ops 2

         

        Tweaks like this are still being made for the final product; Treyarch isn't sitting on their arses until November, far from it

         

        This is exactly the sort of idea that is ideal for the polishing and sanding stage of development.

        • robbierocket Master 3,521 posts since
          May 31, 2011
          Currently Being Moderated
          robbierocket     Sep 11, 2012 1:45 AM (in response to Grayewsable)

          I really really really hope that the appropriate Treyarch dev sees this thread.

           

          TDM fans (and I mean the ones that love to play TDM as opposed to those who use it as ranking up, training or a default game mode) have long been after a meaningful presentation of the game result and players' standings. This would mark a major step in line with Treyarch's excellent and conscientious approach to game making.

           

          There's still time!

  • Grayewsable Expert 942 posts since
    Apr 29, 2012
    Currently Being Moderated
    Grayewsable     Sep 12, 2012 12:41 PM (in response to robbierocket)

    Bump-da-dumpty-doo.

  • robbierocket Master 3,521 posts since
    May 31, 2011
    Currently Being Moderated
    robbierocket     Oct 2, 2012 9:36 AM (in response to robbierocket)

    Any info on the latest TDM Standings format?

  • HecTiC_WorLD Calculating status... 54 posts since
    Aug 16, 2012
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    HecTiC_WorLD     Oct 3, 2012 1:42 PM (in response to robbierocket)

    did the math, 100 points per kill and 40 per assist

    • robbierocket Master 3,521 posts since
      May 31, 2011
      Currently Being Moderated
      robbierocket     Oct 3, 2012 2:44 PM (in response to HecTiC_WorLD)

      Well done. I used 20, 40, 50, 60 or 80 points for damage-proportional assist points.

       

      The thing is that it should also be -100 for a death. Deaths hurt the team but are not represented in player score.

       

      Most other game modes for example will have points scored for both achievement and enemy denial of achievement (bombs diffused or set, flags planted or defended). Points in TDM are only one-way.

      • HecTiC_WorLD Newbie 54 posts since
        Aug 16, 2012
        Currently Being Moderated
        HecTiC_WorLD     Oct 3, 2012 2:26 PM (in response to robbierocket)

        Yea that could work, but I have another idea for to create a gamemode called reinforcements. You start off with a specific number of people, and every death decreases your numbers. I say maybe start with 200 reinforcements. The team to lose all their reinforcements and have the remaining players killed wins.

        • robbierocket Master 3,521 posts since
          May 31, 2011
          Currently Being Moderated
          robbierocket     Oct 3, 2012 2:47 PM (in response to HecTiC_WorLD)

          That's exactly what TDM is.

           

          The reinforcements number is 69, teams start with 6. Use your 69 and all 6 die and you've lost, the enemy have 75 kills....7500 team score.

          • HecTiC_WorLD Newbie 54 posts since
            Aug 16, 2012
            Currently Being Moderated
            HecTiC_WorLD     Oct 3, 2012 2:51 PM (in response to robbierocket)

            But if we put your idea of penalizing points from players, that isn't the same thing because then it would take forever, it would be basically if you die the enemy gains reinforcements. I was trying to make the game realistic I mean if someone in the military dies it does not mean that the enemy gains a man.

            • robbierocket Master 3,521 posts since
              May 31, 2011
              Currently Being Moderated
              robbierocket     Oct 3, 2012 4:04 PM (in response to HecTiC_WorLD)

              I think you misunderstood me twice.

               

              1. I was saying that your idea is how TDM is now, only instead of 200 reinforcements, each team has 69 in TDM.

               

              2. My idea about losing 100 points for a death is meant as a points-representation for the individual players, not the team. Teams should still play to 75 kills, how score best represents this is the discussion, not changing the game.

              It's the teams who trade points because a kill for one team is a death for the other and one team progresses by 1 kill or 100 points. That is the difference between them, 1 kill or 100 points. For an individual to die, as it stands now, they lose nothing (sure an enemy player earns points and the enemy team earns points but neither fact discredits the player with the death).

              Another way to look at it is that the objective for TDM is kills-minus deaths and so points are not so much cumulative as a result. Taken at the end of the match, 100 points can be given for each kill minus death. My tables show all this.

               

              When teams alone are concerned kills and deaths sort themselves out, because each team has a finite number (75). With individual players there is no finite number, you could have any number between 0 and 75 of either, most players get 0-30 and the average is 12.5.

               

              If I played FFA style on TDM and tried to top the table every game I could conceivably score 20-something kills each game and be top. I could even claim I had helped my team the most but the reality is that I probably haven't. Someone going 25-30 every TDM would surely score the highest points but (and this is a fact) more likely be on the losing team - hence not doing well with the objective.

              • kourtvizion Apprentice 428 posts since
                Jul 28, 2011
                Currently Being Moderated
                kourtvizion     Oct 31, 2012 12:17 PM (in response to robbierocket)

                I have thought this is how they should score TDM for a long time.  Leveling up would require consistent performance and not be based on who can sit in front of the tv the longest.  Good job putting in a post.  Couldnt have done it better myself.

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