Currently Being ModeratedRe: The Avengers Movie
Haha, I wanted to collect my thoughts and also sleep since I stayed up all night watching the Avenger solo movies. And I would think you'd know better than to call Natasha a mere mortal! In the comics, the Red Room project did a bit of genetic tampering to give her accelerated healing and strength though not quite on the level of Cap (also she can't get pregnant naturally, her body reacts to it as a disease). They alluded to the Red Room a lot with Widow in the movie, though never came out and said whether she has the say abilities as the comics. They didn't really do anything to make me think she couldn't have those enhancement. I've actually been wondering if her next appearance would be in Captain America 2 given we're bound to get Winter Soldier and she and Bucky have a great relationship in the comics.
Anyway, I thought the Avengers awesome, though apparently not quite as much as Iron, haha. There's a number of things I disagree with you on that'll mention later. The action scenes in this were fantastic. I was hoping that the battle for New York would be on par with the one in EMH against Kang's forces and I definitely thought it delievered. Lots of sweet moments with everyone getting there turn to show off and work together. I really like Black Widow's team-up with Cap and her moment of awesome, which I'm sure Iron knows what I'm talking about. Thor had a really nice one as well and Iron Man got quite a few of them. As did Hulk, but I wasn't laughing and cheering for his stuff like most of the theater, though I'm not really a Hulk fan. I thought the big action sequence that happened right before the big Battle for New York was just as awesome, though hard to get into without spoiling some great stuff.
I think you're being a bit generous in talking up the character development though. For some characters? Yeah, Iron Man got a lot of development with the way he works with certain characters, Pepper, and how he reacts to "The Sacrifice", along with his own sacrifice. Black Widow also got a ton of development which was friggin awesome. They got a lot into her backstory and her friendship with Clint. Though she's fourth on my list of favorite Avengers (behind Clint, Mockingbird, and Cap) she was my favorite character to watch in the movie which is a complete turn around from the disaster I thought she was in IM2. She was tough, dangerous, and understands Loki on a level that I don't think the others do because of her work as a spy. I really enjoy her scene with Loki, though the twist completely made it for me. Another character that got lots of development was Bruce Banner. Ruffalo's take on him was different than what I expected, very quirky. A bit too much at times, I think, with the jokes, but Ruffalo made him very likeable. The SHIELD crew of Fury, Coulson, and Maria Hill all got some good development but given we didn't really know too much about them that wasn't too hard.
Who didn't get development was Thor. He got lots of awesome fight scenes, though I can't say his character developed at all. Same goes for Cap. There wasn't time to see him really adjust to the modern world, so much as he just put those feelings aside to save the day. There was the tension between him and Tony, but that was resolved more through Tony's actions and Cap changing his opinion, then Cap himself changing. That's not to say that either of the characters were bad, cause they definitely weren't. I just don't think they developed like beyond what we saw in their solo movies.
Given it's taken me this long to talk about my favorite character its probably obvious that Hawkeye didn't live up to my expectations. I thought Whedon really dropped the ball on him and consideirng Whedon is so well known for his humor, that Hawkeye, also known for his humor, got zero one liners. At times it felt awkward and just not Clint (like saying he wants to shoot an arrow through someone's eye socket) like Whedon didn't really know how to write a voice for him so he ended up sounding like a generic soldier assassin type with no real personality to be found. Renner talked up in interviews about Clint being a loner and outcast and I don't think it came together well on-screen. It was just this very brief shallow comment and shot of him sitting by himself, it didn't feel like how Han Solo is a loner in the first Star Wars because of his reluctance to get invovled in the rebellion or show emotion toward anyone. Most of Clint's very limited characterization is only through Natasha relationship to him and it's done in a way that ultimately makes him feel more like an accesory to her than a character unto himself. I do think there's glimpses into the type of character Clint is, but I can't honestly say whether they were intentional or if I'm just grasping at straws to try to connect the character I know and love to what was presented in the movie. Yeah, he gets some cool trick arrow moments and some sweet action scenes (though I hate how he disappears toward the tail end of the New York battle) but I can't honestly say I felt like they brought Clint Barton as a character to life on the big screen. I kept waiting for that one moment when I could say "Yes, tha's Clint!" and it never really came. In glimpses, maybe, but nothing to hang your hat on.
But Hawkeye disappoints aside, it's a fantastic movie well worth the money and time to see. Whedon did an amazing job bringing together all the movies and characters. The action scenes were amazing and like a comic book come to life. As weird as it sounds, I think if they had cut Hawkeye from the movie entirely I would've loved it more cause I wouldn't have that shadow hanging over me. But it was definitely a great movie and the last hour or however long it was will blow your mind! When Loki really puts his plan into action it makes everything from previous CBM's look like nothing compared to the challenges the Avengers face.
Yeah I was pretty sure you were going to be disappointed in Hawkeye. It was like they gave all the humor to Tony and the Hulk and cut Hawkeye out of that part, which was a shame. But they also had Hawkeye under Loki's thrall there for a bit so he didn't get to really interact with the other characters earlier in the movie and I think that hurt his development. I can see why they had Loki take the Dr. but having Hawkeye be turned for a bit might have been a mistake. So I have to agree to you they did make Hawkeye more a super action guy without any real personality and Renner is a good actor so they could have gone there, it was a missed opportunity and seeing how he is your fav character I totally get your disappointment with the role.
I guess when I say character development I was really talkng about BW and BB. They didn't do a lot of development of the other characters who had their own movie and that makes sense to a degree. I don't think they developed Tony a lot more either but he did get a lot of scenes, hard for me to be objective on this one since IM is my fav guy and I mostly like RDJ's take on Stark so of course I am going to be happy with lots of IM. Also like I said IM's action scenes were better in this movie than in his own movies, lol. But really BW and BB were both really well done and developed. As far as BW goes I know that there was some enhancement in the comic, but you know her much better than I do. However in the movie she just seems like a really, really skilled fighter and also a person who is like four or five moves ahead of her opponent in a fight, so her mind is her strongest weapon as she just outhinks her opponents in a fight and I loved how they show that in the film. As far as her scene with Loki that was totally sweet. I really liked Ruffalo's understated approach to Banner and thought it really worked also loved how he and Tony got along so well because they are both science geeks, would be natural for them to like each other.
I am right with you on the action scenes I thought they were all really outstanding, every single one and certainly are bigger and better than anything we have ever seen before in a comic book movie by far.
Well Hawk I am glad you enjoyed it so much but I also understand some of your frustration. Hopefully if they make Avengers 2, which is probably a given since the reviews have been so great and the box office is going to be huge, they develop Hawkeye much better. The character deserves it that is for sure.
That all being said Avengers goes into my pantheon of greatest movies I have seen and I have to give Whedon a lot of credit for not only pulling it off but making it spectacular.
SPOILERS --> The thing is, even with Clint being brainwashed for much of the movie they still have plenty of opportunities to get into his character. Before he got brainwashed he could've thrown out a smartass comment or two about the Cosmic Cube, Clint has always been very anti-authority so that he would say something cheeky or sarcastic to Fury would be completely in character. I was expecting him to reply with a sarcastic comment when Loki told him "You have heart" before brainwashing him. Another golden oppotunity was when he was brainwashed and Selvig was talking about how the staff basically worked by giving you whatever your heart desires. Selvig said he was granted knowledge and had asked Clint what he saw and all he said was "My next target", It makes him sound like a psycho and skims over a great chance to tell you what kind of person Clint is. And the scene when he was recovering was another area which had a lot of options to get into Clint's character. His comments about it felt like to have his brain screwed with came across more like an excuse to talk about Natasha's backstory again. I get Whedon wanted to emphasis would sadistic Loki is by Clint acting so tortured, but I thought they could've done that while still keeping more in with his character. Would it have been so hard to have Clint comment about wanting a beer or throwing out a few sarcastic comments. I will say that Clint asking right away how many people he killed and Natasha's response that he can't beat himself up over what Loki made him do was very character for Clint, as I said in my review I'm not sure if it's an intentional hint to Clint's comic personality or not. Then when the Quinjet Clint was piloting got shot, where was the cocky remark about being able to set it down? There were plenty of chances to throw in some one liners during the big fight scene like EMH did so well for the Kang invasion episode, but instead he was all business. I wish I could just say there wasn't a chance to show his personality, but there was and Whedon walked right past it. <-- SPOILERS
I think they did touch on Tony a bit, because of "The Sacrifice". Yeah, Yinsen died in IM1, but this was a bit different and you saw how Tony reacts to it. Yinsen died before Tony had become a hero, now he is a hero and he still wasn't able to prevent what happened. It's what influences Tony to make his own sacrifice later on and we've never see that look on his face before as he does. We've also really never seen Tony interact with someone that's intellectually on his level before with Bruce. Tony is used to always being the smartest person in the room and around Bruce he's not and the way he handled it was interesting to me. He was more comfortable around Bruce than perhaps anyone else we/ve seen.
I agree with everything you say about how they could have handled Hawkeye, but part of me wonders if since they already have Downey being, a little too snarky for my tastes, a wiseass that they decided to tone done Clint, or did Renner want to play him more as a straight tough guy, not sure but in my mind it was a missed opportunity to develop Clint the right way. I now if they would have treated IM that way it would be hard for me to take so I feel your pain.
As far as Tony is concerned they did have him make that sacrifice, which for me was really dramatic, touching and cool, will talk about it more later when everyone has seen the film, and that tied directly into his and Cap's argument. It was also very cool to see the two brainiacs digging each other so much, although Tony was a total ass and stupid when he poked BB because that would be like trying to detonate a nuclear bomb on the hellecarier for goodness sakes, lol. But then Tony did tell Cap to call it, which was very sweet, and Cap laid it out like the leader he is.
Another thing they did really well was show fatigue, fear, and the consequences of being in a big fight, Cap, BW and Hawkeye get beat to crap and IM's armor looks like it went through a war. By the way the delivery of the Mark 7 armor was very cool. Also Thor got a bloody nose, very cool. The BW/Hulk scene on the HC was really well done, I would be frigging scared if the Hulk was after me, lol.
I know you are not a big Hulk fan but man they let him loose and knowing that you have a sense of humor I am kind of shocked that you didn't totally crack up with the Hulk/Thor moment and especially the Hulk/Loki moment. The theater I was in everybody just blew up laughting at that moment and talking to a few of my employees who saw the movie at the midnight showing they said the theatre went crazy laughing and applouding at that moment. What for you were the funniest moments?
Have you seen Box Office Mojo, Avengers did over 80 million and they say it is a mathmatical certainity that it will be the #1 opening weekend of all time beating out HP7 and that it might even reach 200 million, awesome. Here in Fairbanks they planned to show it at midnight on 3 screens but so many people showed up that they showed it on 7 screens, how cool is that.
So I am taking my girlfriend to it again this week and will probably go see it again myself after that. Hawk are you going to see it again, how about anybody else? All I can say is I am blown away and my hat is off to Whedon for making this a masterpiece. Very cool also that my employees who saw the movie were blown away as well.
Ok here's my very short pre-review.....AWESOME and I loved it! You know it's gotta be a great movie when you want to go back in and watch it again at the next showing. I'll probably put together a few more thoughts tomorrow.
Wow Iron, you called it. Estimates have The Avengers completely shattering the record that HP set with an opening weekend of just over 200 million. Now that's impressive!
There's not much I could say that either Iron or Hawk didn't already say. I really really really enjoyed this movie. It was great that everyone had moments to shine. I'd say for me Black Widow and Hulk kinda stole the show a bit, but IM, Cap, Thor and even Hawkeye (to a lesser extent) all had some very cool moments. The arguments between all the characters never seemed forced and really made you think "there's no way they're gonna come together and make it work" (although you already know better) and seeing them have their scenes where they do finally come together was like a dream come true. I think Tom Hiddleston did another top notch job in making Loki more sinister and damaged based on what the character experienced in Thor. I liked the fact that Thor still had some hope for his brother and was a little conflicted on what he had to do to stop him.
It's really hard for me to pick a favorite scene because the whole movie was so great. I basically had a huge smile on my face the whole movie.
Spoiler section ------
I was disappointed that they killed off Coulson but it was cool that they kind of made that moment be the little push that the Avengers needed to put aside their differences and work together. It was a pretty powerful couple of scenes for me and I think it may have been better if Fury wasn't the one that kind of manipulated things (with the cards)
The mid credits scene with Thanos was pretty cool. I don't want to get too excited as I don't really know how they are going to pull something like that off and still make it mesh with everything else they've done (Thor was a good start and I'm interested to see where Thor 2 goes as I think it will go further into the fantastical/cosmic stuff) Who knows....not too long ago we weren't sure they could pull the Avengers off and now look where we are. I'm cautiously optimistic, I guess you'd say.
The additional end credit scene was a nice little bonus and like Hawk said, pretty unexpected. It's funny that they did that based off a line that RDJ improvised.
Great to hear from you Jad. I agree that Hiddelston did a great job in every scene!! He just reeked of malice, mischeif and manipulation. He had a plan and he manipulated the Avengers hoping to tear them apart. Thor's hope was well done and really Hemsworth only moment where he was given a chance to really emote outside of the many brawls he was in, lol.
You are also right that it is hard to pick out one moment, of course I loved all IM stuff, lol although the whole missle thing was very touching for me especially when he called Pepper. The whole movie was just so good from beginnning to end. Also contrary to what some people think that the first half moved slowly I totally disagree it was needed to set up the movie as a whole and integrate the team together and show the challenges of bringing together such disperate personalities and Whedon did an excellent job of doint that while having some great action sequences while all this happened.
Just checked out Box office MOJO and yes Jad as you said I was right, lol. It is going to smash HP6 by over 30 million dollars and be the first movie over 200 mill. Now way Rises touches this in fact I don't think Rises will outgross TDK. Avengers set the record for Saturday and Sunday opening and opening weekend and when you add in international by the end of this weekend it will be close to 700 mill, WTF are you kidding me, lol.
Overall just an awesome movie. Must go see again, lol.
Glad to hear you liked it, Jad!
@Iron - Although Renner has said he didn't know anything about Hawkeye before taking on the role and Marvel showed him some Ultimate comics, I think the fault is on Whedon. He was the mastermind and wrote the script and failed to capture Clint's personality as well as they managed to do with just one line in Thor. "Do you want me to take him down or keep throwing guys for him to beat up?" It was cocky and smartmouthed and showed him as a bit of a rebel to talk back to his superior that way. Renner's delievery may have been a bit dry for my taste, the dialogue itself was spot on and the follow up "Better hurry up, I'm starting to root for this guy." was pretty good too. Whether RDJ's Tony being a bit hyperactive with the constant jokes has something to do with it, I don't know, but it didn't seem to hurt Banner or Black Widow throwing out a few jokes.
I really liked how they showed the Avengers actually saving people, something that is sometimes skimmed over or missed in superhero movies. It was great to not just see the Avengers kick ass, but Clint helping people get out of the bus and Cap saving the people in the bank and ordering the cops to get people to safety. I also thought it was a great touch that while Fury tried to create the Avengers, it was the Avengers themselves that made that choice to come together as a team. Thor was in the middle of a field, Bruce was...somwhere, Clint and Natasha were in medical bay, Cap and IM were with Fury but they all ended up in New York together because they chose to be there and wanted to be there. They aren't under SHIELD's control or its superpowered lapdogs and are free to do what they want in the sequel.
Both the moments you brought up were a bit too slapstick for me. I think the Hulk and Loki really undermined Loki too. I know Hulk is Hulk, but the "puny God" bit just made Loki look like a chump after spending all movie showing how sadistic and powerful he was. If Hulk could do that, than why couldn't have Thor beaten Loki within minutes and end the movie before it started? I also thought the Galaga gag was too much too. Tony's initial remark was fine since he's always running his mouth about crap, but the follow-up was just too silly and made SHIELD look like clowns. As for my favorite joke, definitely the LMD reference. Surprisingly for all the jokes Whedon packs into the movie (especially for Tony's dialogue), that's the only one that I remember that I can say I really, really liked. Maybe it's just a case of there being so many jokes it gets hard to keep track of em all.
That's pretty insane about Avengers smashing Harry Potter's record! I wonder how long it'll be before we can get a sequel, haha.
One question -
As awesome as Black Widow was....did she ever use her gauntlets? (did she even have them?) I saw them in the end credits (which I thought were really cool btw) but I don't recall them in the movie.
EDIT - also, Iron, do you remember the Tower member.....(spoilery territory - highlight to read).....with a name that matched the character shown in the mid credits scene. I bet he flipped his lid when he saw that!
Ok, so I finally saw it today, and... Wow... I gotta say it's my new favorite movie. I can't believe I just saw an Avengers movie turn out this awesome. A movie we've been waiting for for about 5 years? 6 years? Since Iron Man, at least.
So, basically you've all covered a lot of my thoughts. Great action, obviously. Iron Man had plenty of cool RDJ-Stark moments, with jokes and it kinda just almost feels like Downey doesn't even need a script anymore. It just sounds like he already knows the character he's playing, which is cool. Cap and Thor were good, and filled the roles they were kinda expected to fill. Cap had a tough time adjusting to the world and had his signature leadership moments, of course. His bet with Fury was hilarious, too, I thought. Thor didn't get to do as much as some of the characters, though it was interesting how he wanted to deal with Loki differently from everyone at the start, and seeing how that changed a little.
Hulk really kinda stole the show, though, in my opinion. Ruffalo's version of Banner was great. I kept reading interviews about how he was kinda world-weary and had accepted being the Hulk, but had kinda a charm and sense of humor about it, which I thought Ruffalo pulled off perfectly. And Black Widow was good, too. All the hints to her past that us comic fans pick up on, and she had some pretty cool action scenes, too. Hawkeye, of course, didn't get a lot of time to shine, and the whole first half of the movie kinda felt like a waste for him. I kinda felt like some of his "revenge" ideas felt too Ultimate Hawkeye for my tastes, since I've never been a fan of the Ultimate version of him. Though his line about Budapest sounded like something outta EMH, actually.
Loki was interested as a villain, really. You could see that he'd changed plenty from Thor, but you could also see that he hadn't changed as much as he thought he had. He was still seeking approval from others constantly, it seemed like, as he wanted to be worshipped basically.
And Fury was just downright devious... in a good way. He felt like the Marvel version of Nate Ford, from Leverage, pulling the strings.
Anyways, I just can't believe the movie was this awesome. I saw it in 3D at an IMAX, and the 3D was kinda... there. It didn't add a ton to the movie, but it didn't distract from it, either, so that's fine with me. I'm definitely gonna go see it again once I get through finals week here. And then buy it on Blu-Ray and watch it like a million times...
@Jad: I thought she used 'em up close a few times. Like she didn't really blast anyone with them, but she used them to kinda finish off some enemies, I think.
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