Currently Being ModeratedMar 13, 2012 9:13 AM (in response to Gun_808)Re: Remove flinching completely
Solution: Use focus, one of the best proficencies in the game.
I like to use focus on my SMG classes, and when I get engaged in a battle I always come out on top because when they shoot me it has very little effect to me, and I can easily focus my aim without it barely moving.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 13, 2012 9:31 AM (in response to nycoolguy)Re: Remove flinching completely
Yeah I agree, but also having a faster draw time should not be the reason why you win a gun fight. They should remove quickdraw completely too. Quickdraw vs anything else usually wins in a gun fight. I hate it. I believe everyone should be able to zoom in at the same time, not 50% faster than someone. But hey, this is COD.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 13, 2012 9:46 AM (in response to A_L_L_S_T_A_R_03)Re: Remove flinching completely
Now now A_L_L_S_T_A_R_03 let the adults continue our discussion, go back to your hello kitty adventures. On a serious note, I don't believe flinching was in COD4 was it? that's another reason cod4 is so much more superior.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 22, 2012 6:09 AM (in response to Xuloz)Re: Remove flinching completely
well if you havent noticed technology has advanced since cod 4 and with that you must advance with your skill, flinch is a new aspect that you have to take into affect with your gameplay so go take some accuracy lessons and get used to it
Currently Being ModeratedMar 13, 2012 9:43 AM (in response to Gun_808)Re: Remove flinching completely
agreed, this stupid crap needs to go
focus is just as broken as damage view kick
both have no place in the game
"Yeah, never once I thought about "dammnit i can't quit flinching, they keep killing me, i don't know what to do!!!!!"......seriously?? LOL!"
ever consider using a shotgun and going over their head because they hit you once?
Currently Being ModeratedMar 13, 2012 6:48 PM (in response to Gun_808)Re: Remove flinching completely
It has been present since CoD4 (or before).
It was the cause of the infamous "Second Shot" when using bolt action rifle.
The ONLY problem is that it corrects pre-fired shots, meaning that you didn't get a chance to respond to the flinch, missing the enemy because your recoil is different on the host than in your game for a short period after the flinch where your shots fired are recalculated by the host and you actually experience the flinch on your screen.
Thus flinch appears to affect you twice:
Your sight is flinched on your shots already fired, making your some of your early hits miss (as experienced with the second and even third bolt action shot in CoD4), and you experience flinch on your screen after having your shots miss because of the flinch, possibly causing you to miss again.
Flinch is very disruptive.
Currently Being ModeratedMar 13, 2012 7:24 PM (in response to Gun_808)Re: Remove flinching completely
I don't understand why flinch is in the game. Is it for realism or something? It's unecessary and ruins the gameplay.
DVK is a disruption of balance for a number of reasons.
Firstly, it gives assault rifles and other accurate, fully automatic weapons a large advantage that allows them to effectively negate the idea of one gun being better than another at certain ranges.
Here's a good example. A sniper is sniping when an assault rifler steps into his vision. They both notice each other at the same time. Without DVK, the sniper rifle, being the dominant long range weapon, can simply shoot the assault rifler even if he shoots back and kill him. This is good: the sniper rifle got the long range firepower it deserved. Now, factor in DVK, and it is simply a matter of who sees who first. Once the assault rifler hits, the sniper will be unable to aim and thus he will just die. Simply because of that a sniper's prowess is severely reduced.
Here's another example. I have an SMG, and someone else has an assault rifle. We are in close range combat. Without DVK, the rifleman would have to very deft or the SMG'er very dumb to have the assault rifle kill the SMG up close. Yet with DVK, it's simply a matter of shooting first.
In those examples you are most likely thinking "Oh, but if the SMG/sniper hit first then what?" Then they would of course win, but the fact that the assault rifler can win against the SMG'er or sniper in their respective ranges simply by shooting first is ludicrous.
Moving on, DVK doesn't have any real upsides. Realism could be one, but balance comes first above all, negating realism in the first place. The most convincing "upside" to it is that it rewards the person who is more skilled enough to get the first shot in. But a game that includes that should be BASED around that. COD is not based around shooting first to win. COD is about using your weapon correctly in its range and adapting to its downsides. If you want to make a game based around shooting first, go ahead, but know that COD as it is must need some major tweaking to accommodate this and that COD, as it is, is based on using your weapon strategically.
Furthermore, DVK makes some weapons near useless. In a battle between a rifle and a machine gun at medium range, it looks like either could win, right? No. Even if shooting first, a rifle doesn't have the fire rate to sustain DVK, allowing the machine gun to kill the rifleman because of DVK. Similar weapons include bolt action rifles, bolt action snipers, and semi-automatic snipers, all of which are VERY hard to use in the current environment where DVK is present due to the fact that:
A:They cannot sustain DVK because of the low rate of fire
B:They rely on precision heavily, something you can't get with DVK
Finally, DVK is ANNOYING as we have said all along. The fact that I cannot shoot someone simply because he shot me first is ANNOYING. Anything that is annoying obviously has little to no place in a game that you should be having fun in.
I'm going to sum it all up here:
-DVK is not a matter of influencing another player but a problem of balance.
-DVK creates an imbalance in guns, giving semiautomatic guns and guns adapted to certain ranges (which includes sniper rifles, SMG's, LMG's, and shotguns, meaning every gun except for assault rifles) a major disadvantage.
-DVK also has no real upsides, and including DVK in a game means that the game should be based around it, which COD is not.
-DVK heavily handicaps semi-automatic weapons and bolt action weapons, giving them a massive disadvantage.
-DVK is annoying.
-The removal of DVK is not easy mode or dumb:it is logical.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 18, 2012 8:15 PM (in response to bubbacake)Re: Remove flinching completely
Very nice post. Although for 'realism sake' Isn't even a remote option. Why?
Because shotguns get hitmarkers even at near point blank range, while you shoot them in the face
(Why don't shotguns have headshot multipliers? Sense it does not make)
50caliber rifle can't shoot through someone taking Ibuprofen.
Realism should never ever belong in COD. And it should never be an excuse to add something in.
I completely agree with your post.
If we are stuck with Flinch however, it should NOT actually affect your weapon, ONLY your view. I can't tell you how many times i've shot someone with a shotgun and i was shot at the same time and my pellets GO TO THE STARS!
Currently Being ModeratedMay 18, 2012 9:27 PM (in response to bubbacake)Re: Remove flinching completely
I have to disagree with this post and the neccessity of DVK in CoD. You talked about how shooting an enemy first shouldn't grant you a kill and the fact is it doesn't. Shooting your enemy with the required amount of bullets that your gun needs to aquire a kill first is what matters. This could be anywhere from 1 to 6 shots depending on what gun you have and what range you are at.
Snipers require fewer shots with good accuracy at long range while SMGs require the most shots with bad accuracy at long range. SMGs require few shots at close range but with superior firepower and maneuverability compared to snipers who still only require one shot but are handicapped in firepower, manueverability, clip size, accuracy, etc. Essentially its balanced. Shotguns are special because they are a OHK weapon up close but are restricted by range. SMGs are mostly dominant at close range except for against shotguns, but sinse shotguns are the MOST dominant gun at close range means they are bested by everything else at long ranges. When it comes to snipers they arent the MOST dominant at long range because between LMGs ARs and Snipers there are over 20 guns that are all capable of accurate cross map firing. The snipers only have the advantage because they are a OHK. The ARs have an advantage because they are accurate and the LMGs have an advantage because they have large mags and do high damage. Everything has a niche and a benefit. DVK plays little roll in determining how a user can use his or her weapon. ANYWAYS;
Regarding DVK, if an SMG shoots a sniper at long range and hits their target the sniper will experience a flinch. The sniper has two options which are either return fire or run to cover. If this is the type of player who would normally want to return fire immediately then they should be using the Focus proficiency. Thats what the proficiency is there for! If that proficiency isnt selected then retreating is the best option, while shooting back will likely get you killed. If he chooses to shoot back he only requires to pull off one accurate shot and remember most SMGs must burst fire at long range in order to conserve accuracy, so you DO have time to return fire as a sniper, even without Focus. However if you're being overwhelmed then finding cover is a great alternative. Retreat, Recover, Revenge. If the SMG happens to kill the sniper at long range its not because the sniper had DVK and couldnt return fire, its because the SMG simply outplayed the sniper.
The SMGer positioned himself in a way that allowed him to land the first shots. He maintainted his accuracy and got a kill. If the sniper were to retreat and recover then he would have been able to re-approach the situation with a better understanding of where the SMGer is. If the sniper were looking in the right direction to begin with then he would have had a drop on the SMGer at long range and would have been able to pick him off easily. Instead SMG got the drop on the sniper, sniper pays the price.
Reverse the situation around, lets say its a close range encounter (with no DVK involved) between a sniper and an SMG. The SMG starts shooting first yet the sniper has no DVK so he just fires back once for an easy kill. How is that balanced? Its not at all. DVK is what balances snipers at close range. People say quickscoping is unbalanced but you're only successful if you can land your first shot every single time without getting hit by enemy bullets at all and with a sniper rifle that is NOT easy to do. Any AR or SMG hits you and your flinch screws you right up, while at longer ranges you have the ability to retun fire and/or get to safety. Its balanced, thats why its in the game!
DVK should be in CoD because it helps the person who played better win, not the person who shot first. If Im using a sniper rifle and I happen to run up behind an enemy who doesnt suspect me, am I not allowed to scope in and kill him at close range? Ofcourse I am. I navigated the map and got the drop on my enemy and killed him. Thats no different than an SMGer getting the drop on a sniper at long range and picking him off with accurate burst firing.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 18, 2012 9:42 PM (in response to vileself)Re: Remove flinching completely
"Use Focus" is invalid for a shotgunner
Because shotguns are complete total garbage without Damage or Range
If i shoot someone at less than 10m with a pump-action shotgun and get a hitmarker when my aim was centered at their chest and they weren't moving. And the developers INSIST That pump-action shotguns are working as intended. What do i do?
If someone shoots me at the same time i shoot them and i flinch and my pellets go to the moon. Did i deserve to lose that close range encounter? If i shot first and got a hitmarker and they emptied 20 bullets in me before i could pump. was i outplayed?
Currently Being ModeratedMay 19, 2012 9:51 AM (in response to Zerotick)Re: Remove flinching completely
I didnt use the Focus argument for shotgunners although it IS a valid argument SINSE all shotguns except the overpowered Striker got a buff!! Now guns like the KSG and USAS are capable of EASY 1-2 hit kills at close range and are actually concidered overpowered by many. Personally I think they were fine before the buff, sure they were tough to use, but I WANT guns that are tough to use. I hate guns like the ACR and MP7 because they require no effort and no skill. Doing well with a shotgun requires skill, not so much anymore because of their buff.
They key to using a shotgun successfully is map knowledge. Its all about getting in close, staying in tight quarters and being a good flanker. People think they can run around like its an AR and cross open fields and long sight lines and be just fine. People think they should be able to OHK with a shotgun at 20-30 feet away. Thats rediculous! There ARE proficiencies that let you do those types of things, but you cant expect to have that kind of power out of the box, because then they'd all be overpowered for sure.
There have been several debates about DVK/flinching over the past couple of years and the devs continue to leave it in, why? Because taking it out would upset the balance of the weapons even more. In Black Ops they implemented a Pro version of a perk which reduced your flinch and in MW3 they gave us a proficiency. So if you're the type of player who likes to return fire once you've been hit then you should be using the aids that the developers gave you! Thats what they're there for! Just like if you want your shotgun to have longer range you use the Range proficiency, its not rocket science.
Anyways, bottom line is that if someone starts shooting you accurately first then they should get a kill. If they arent accurate then you wont be flinching and you will be able to return fire no problem. But without DVK if someone fires first and then the other guy turns and fires back and wins then the first guy just got ripped off because he initially outplayed the other guy.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 19, 2012 1:08 PM (in response to vileself)Re: Remove flinching completely
I'm not trying to go off-topic or derail things, and I'm certainly not trying to start a shotgun debate, but this deserves correction. Particularly when the mistake is being used to further an on-topic argument.
I didnt use the Focus argument for shotgunners although it IS a valid argument SINSE all shotguns except the overpowered Striker got a buff!!
No they didn't. Bowling and Ghandi both claimed that all shotguns except the Striker got a buff, but the details of their two claims didn't match each other or what players saw. Players soon disproved the claim. After about a month of questions, Ghandi finally reported that only a couple of shotguns were actually "buffed". (It took even more prodding to get the TU8 details changed to reflect reality, and the resulting text is still slightly misleading.)
The Extended Mags glitch was removed, which "depowered" every shotgun that could take advantage of that glitch.
The USAS and KSG were given a 50% pellet increase, reproducing the effect of the Extended Mags glitch.
The SPAS recieved a minor damage boost, but no extra pellets.
The AA-12 was not touched at all. When asked why, the response was that it was a fully automatic shotgun. When asked why that mattered, when it was also one of the worst shotguns, the response to that they couldn't make it better without making it too good.
The 1887 was not touched at all. When asked why, the response was that it was a "skill weapon." When asked how a slow weapon that could randomly fail to OHK at close range with a dead-on shot was a skill weapon, there was no further response.
The Striker apparently was not touched at all? (Original official claims were that it was nerfed, but I don't recall any confirmed change to it beyond the overall removal of the extended mags glitch.)
When asked about further shotgun buffs to the still underpowered weapons, the response was that too many people would complain on hearing that shotguns got buffed, regardless of the actual changes. It sounded like Ghandi was admitting that IW/SH didn't care about facts behind the complaints, but rather were more concerned with public perception and response. Basically, the volume of people who hate shotguns outweighs the volume of people who like them, so they don't want to make any more improvements to any of them.
They fixed the old shotgun ADS glitch, where ADS'ing with a shotgun gave worse accuracy than using regular hipfire. The effect of this fix was minimal, and Steady Aim (intentionally) still gives the tightest spread.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 19, 2012 6:21 PM (in response to Soracia)Re: Remove flinching completely
Thats all a load of bull unless you can present links and quotes from where the devs did Q&A about shotguns because Im on these forums everyday and that must have slipped right by me.
Before their "buff" I thoroughly tested out all shotguns. My most success was with the Spas and Model. The KSG and USAS were compeltely useless without Damage or Range. The AA12 and Striker were overly dominant at close range but were very limited by range and mag size for the AA12. After the buff the Model and Spas still perform relatively the same but each grant OHK's far more often than they used to. The USAS and KSG are now both viable shotguns even without the Range or Damage. I find myself falling victim to these shotguns far more often at close range and when I use them I find myself to be far more successful at close range. The AA12 still feels the same as it did before but it was already dominant. You CAN get a OHK with an AA12 at close range, but sometimes if you hit the guy low or if you're off target a bit then it might take 4-5 shots, but on a full auto shotgun its not difficult to aquire that, as long as you're within range. When it all comes down to it the buff helped the shotguns that needed it. The Model and Spas and even the AA12 didnt really need the buff, even though they recieved slight buffs anyway. The Striker was already dominant at close range so it recieved no buff.
If you're trying to say the shotguns arent better than they were before then you're wrong, sorry. Regardless of that, this is a topic about DVK and NOT shotgun debates, so please stay on topic. I refer to shotguns because people use it in their debates claiming that shotgunners shouldnt suffer from DVK but that is what Focus is for. Its like me using an SMG and saying I shouldnt have to suffer from recoil when shooting long range, thats what Kick is for. If you feel like continuing a shotgun discussion then you can PM me, but dont write back unless you have proof of that shotgun Q&A that you mentioned.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 19, 2012 10:00 PM (in response to vileself)Re: Remove flinching completely
AA-12 Overpowered at close range? Yeah maybe if you're 1-2m AWAY from your foe. Akimbo FMG's are FAR superior to the AA-12.
Need proof? Check the weapon stats. the TTK (Time to Kill) on the AA-12 is one of the LOWEST in the entire game UNLESS you're less than 5m away from your foe, in which case it's decent, and is the 'Highest' TTK at ranges of less than 2M.
Not to mention managing more than 5 kills with the AA-12 before being COMPLETELY out of ammo is EXTREMELY difficult.
TL;DR: Akimbo FMG9's are better in every way compared to the AA-12 unless you're less than 5meters away from your foe or you're running specialist and have damage+range+Extended magazines on your AA-12.
PS: AA-12 and Striker were nerfed. (Spas was sorta buffed/nerfed, It's tricky)
KSG was "buffed" (No negative changes, but it's still roughly as strong as it was before the shotgun change)
USAS-12 Super buffed (Arguably the best shotgun now)
Model is unchanged
Currently Being ModeratedMay 20, 2012 4:18 PM (in response to vileself)Re: Remove flinching completely
Thats all a load of bull unless you can present links and quotes from where the devs did Q&A about shotguns because Im on these forums everyday and that must have slipped right by me.
You're asking me to find links to months old posts on a barely functional forum. (It took me 20-30 minutes just to find Ghandi's shotgun patch post, because the "Search" function for some reason wouldn't return it. And then the forum refused to let me post a reply, acting as if I wasn't logged while I was, and repeatedly taking me to the Black Ops II page if I did log out and log back in.)
From Feb 22: G IH A IN ID II finally says what the "shotgun patch" did:
The rest of the stuff I mentioned is in the same thread, about the only place that Ghandi posts, but I really don't want to hunt each piece of evidence down when the forum makes it so difficult to find something.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 19, 2012 11:19 AM (in response to Gun_808)Re: Remove flinching completely
so you want every player to act like robots? Flinching is one of the few realistic mechanics in the game, sure it is a bit too much at times, but done right it is needed, or else it will just be who pulls the trigger first, not who is more skilled.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 20, 2012 7:01 AM (in response to Gun_808)Re: Remove flinching completely
I'd just like the Flinch to be consistent. It seems like I'm completely unable to cause people to flinch, but every little thing makes me do it. I can start shooting someone 2-3 times and there won't be any flinch on their part, they'll maintain perfect accuracy. And this is without the Focus proficiency.
Either remove it, or make it consistent.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 20, 2012 5:37 PM (in response to Gun_808)Re: Remove flinching completely
How about you get shot with a bullet and try not to flinch, then come here and complain?
Don't try to drain the realism out of this game; it's already very much lacking in the realism department.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 20, 2012 7:46 PM (in response to Gun_808)Re: Remove flinching completely
I dont care to look for the new post but yeah, this **** needs to go.
There is literally no reason whatsoever for this mechanic to exist. It only has downsides, and major ones.. primarily with weapon balance, and player skill gap.
How this trash stayed in since CoD4 [its Beta form, where it was visual only, and didnt actually move your aim] and then MW2, BO, and MW3 in this ridiculous form... I really.. honestly.. cannot understand. Rarely do I actually facepalm... maybe a few times in my life... but I did facepalm when I saw DVK was back in MW3.
As for this stupid post, "Lol, they already virually removed recoil with Kick, how dumbed down do you want the game to get?"
How does DVK increase the skill required to play? Effin retard.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 21, 2012 3:39 PM (in response to Gun_808)Re: Remove flinching completely
I don't mind flinching at all. But the one thing that bothers me is the fact that it seems like whenever I get vests and put them on that I flinch a **** load worse than I did before I had the vest on. I mean sometimes when I get shot with a vest on I'm literally flinching so bad I'm looking at the clouds. Anyone else have this problem?
Currently Being ModeratedMay 21, 2012 8:31 PM (in response to Gun_808)Re: Remove flinching completely
I just hate ow I flinch when I'm shot, but I'm shooting a sniper and visibly see him flinch, he eats bullets then kills me.....his flinch should definitely prevent him from getting a clear shot on me. Especially since I got the first shot and made him flinch.
Currently Being ModeratedMay 21, 2012 9:08 PM (in response to Gun_808)Re: Remove flinching completely
I think the main reason flinching is in the game is to give an excuse for bullets not registering. For example, if I'm shooting at somebody and they're shooting at me, it's likely that on both of our screens we shot enough bullets to kill the other person. But, there is only one winner in a gunfight so even though the main determinant of the winner is internet connection, the makers of COD want us to think that flinching played a large role in the outcome to take away from the fact that the game is really connection based. Thats just my two cents.