Community: Message List - Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 10:26:56 GMT

Are you guys giving up the hope or have you quit?

In any case, the complete list of problems listed as an equation (There should NOT be on single "greater than" sign in this equation if weapons are balanced (~=< is an "negligible difference"):

Useless
Not good enough (Often compared to other weapons in it's class)
Balanced (Compared to all other weapons)
A bit too good (Often compared to other weapons in it's class)
Blatantly overpowered
Nonsense!

MP5 < UMP < P90 ~= PM-9 < PP90M1 ~= MP7

M16 ~= CM901 < AK47 < G36C ~= M4 ~=< ACR ~= Mk14 < Type 95

Dragunov < L118 ~= AS50 < MSR = Barrett = RSASS

AA12 ~= KSG12 ~= Model 1887 ~= SPAS12 ~=< USAS12 < Striker

Because I'm on a roll, here's the perks:

Scavenger < Sleight of hand = Recon = Marathon ~<= Blind-Eye

Blast Shield ~= Overkill* < Hardline < Quickdraw ~= Assassin **

Steady Aim = Sitrep = Marksman < Stalker *** ~=< Dead Silence ****

* Overkill is useless because snipers get single or akimbo FMG9s, period

** Assassin is Nonsense! because it counters or completely invalidates ONE perk (Marksman), ONE attachment (Heartbeat sensor), TWO pieces of equipment (Portable Radar and THREE killstreaks (UAV, UAV-jammer and Advanced UAV).

THEN it goes on and reduce the effect of ONE more perk (Recon), ONE more attachment (Infared) and another killstreak (EMP).

(We could argue that Portable Radar and Heartbeat Sensor is nonsense... but when they are here, ONE perk should not counter them ALL)

*** Stalker lets players with assault rifles strafe while aiming at a pace faster than a 5 sensitivity lets a player aim on 7-10 meters range.
The default sensitivity is 4, meaning stalker lets you STRAFE so fast that your enemy cannot follow you with his sight, resulting in your opponent having to set his sensitivity to 6 or be raped by stalkers outside hip-fire range.
It would be fine if the strafe speed was somewhat realistic, and not almost as fast as the forward run speed. x0.65 would be a nice multiplier.

**** The problem is twofold. YOUR silence makes enemy footsteps VERY noticeable. Enemies cannot hear you coming, so it effectively makes enemy footsteps much more noticeable.
Secondly, we have two methods of detecting enemies in the game: 1: Vision, 2: Hearing.
Removing ONE of those TWO is Nonesense!

I cannot effectively hear dead silence users with my turtle-beach headset even when stationary without ANY sounds what so ever in the background.

=============================================

For reference, here's CoD4 (Leaving out the novelty weapon):
G36C ~=< M4 = AK47 = G3 = M14 < M16
Mini-Uzi = MP5 = P90 = Skorpion ~=< AK74u
R700 < M40 = Dragunov = Barrett = M21
M249 SAW ~= RPD ~= M60

M1014 ~= W1200

Perks:
Bandolier = 3x special ~=< 2x RPG = 2x C4 = Bomb squad ~<= 2x claymore ~= 3x frag ^

Double-Tap = Sleight of Hand ^^ < Overkill ~<= Stopping power = UAV-Jammer ~=< Juggernaut ~= Sonic Boom ^

Eavesdrop ? Iron Lungs < Extreme Conditioning = Last Stand = Deep Impact ~=< Martyrdom ^ ~=< Dead Silence

^ Frag grenades were VERY GOOD in CoD4, and combined with Sonic Boom, they were absurdly powerful. Combine 3x frag with overkill, and have 3 free kills. If frags were reduced to 2x, both would be balanced. Martyrdom made the entire 3x frag, sonic boom, martyrdom class extra viable.
^^ Sleight of hand was VERY useful on the M14 and M1014. If it allowed you to aim faster too, it would have been PERFECTLY balanced with stopping power.

? Eavesdrop. Because hearing about what your enemy clan members ate last night, or worse, what they did to their girlfriend last saturday -- is... well.
The idea is good, but the result is just perverted.

CoD4 quickfix:
Make G36C deal 35 damage on short range
Make M16 fire at 780 RPM

Make juggernaut multiply damage taken from all weapons by x0.85 (20 damage weapons no longer need 7 hits to kill instead of 5, but will kill a juggernaut in 6 hits. It needs to reduce explosive damage to 0.5x)
Give R700 1.5 multiplier on stomach (Yes I know what that will mean, but it NEEDS that.)

Make AK74u ALWAYS have AR-hipfire (instead of only when silenced and with red dot) to weigh up for it's good recoil and AR bullet penetration compared to MP5.
Give shotguns one more pellet.

Move overkill to perk slot 1, replacing 3x special.
Remove 3x frag completely.

Remove Eavesdrop (All perk slots now have 6 perks)

...

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 23:01:00 GMT

Oh...

Surely you do count reloads to reach 705 RPM for the ACR too?

Point being:
Rate of fire does not matter when the weapon has already killed and put one more bullet in for good measure.

For reference, the burst fire delay is 0.20 seconds

With rapid-fire, you fire at 1250 RPM

0.000: First bullet fired
0.050: Second bullet fired
0.100: Third bullet fired
0.300: You can fire again.
0.350: You fire your fourth shot
0.400: You fire your fifth shot
0.450: You fire your sixth shot

Take an ACR.
0.000: First bullet fired
0.085: Second bullet fired
0.170: Third bullet fired
0.255: Fourth bullet fired
0.340: Fifth bullet fired
0.425: Sixth bullet fired.

Now.

Type 95 two-hit kills up to 24 meters and three hit kills up to 37.

It's rate of fire when firing 6 rounds is higher than AK47 and CM901, neither of which can two hit kill.

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 21:40:19 GMT

By ~= as opposed to just =, I suggest they're too different to be equal but are comparable.

Actual ingame testing proves your point, though, without kick it is absolutely useless.

It should definately not be borerline "too good", so I'll change that one.

As for the Mk 14 -- I've used semi-automatic weapons almost exclusively since CoD4, and I think the Mk 14 is a bit too good.
The one headshot kill up to 28 meters gives a heapload of random kills and allow for skill shots when the game doesn't lag horribly.

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 21:52:03 GMT

ACR completely dominates the Type-95. The Type shoots at a 300RPM (including the delay), and with Rapid Fire, it shoots 330RPM. ACR poops on it with 705RPM. The Type kills in 2-5 bullets, while the ACR kills in 3-4. ACR wins at range, which the Type already lacks.

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 04 Apr 2012 14:07:51 GMT

Hard to take you seriously when you say the P90 <= the PM9, or that the ACR = MK14.

P90 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PM9

ACR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MK14

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Tue, 27 Mar 2012 12:10:46 GMT

Most of my deaths, apart from revenge deaths 2 seconds after my kill, newly spawned enemies and spawning into enemy sights, getting shot from behind by an enemy running faster than me, or deaths due to getting singled out by a predator missile while there is nowhere to go or getting insta-killed undamaged by an UMP without taking headshots...

are from enemies in windows, behind cars, boxes, crates, containers, walls and generic objects concealing most of their bodies.

Thus I find that the G36C's recoil does not help.
The G36C's inability to match the ACR's very decent accuracy rewards does not help it at all, either.

Medium range:
Headshot, headshot:
ACR: KILL
G36C: KILL

Headshot, foot:
ACR: KILL (108 damage; 63 + 45)
G36C: NOT A KILL (96 damage; 56 + 40)

Long range:
Headshot, headshot, foot:
ACR: KILL (114 damage; 42 + 42 + 30
G36C: NOT A KILL !!! (99 damage; 37 + 37 + 25)

Headshot, foot, foot:
ACR: KILL!!! (102 damage; 42 + 30 + 30)
G36C: NOT A KILL (87 damage; 37 + 25 + 25)

In addition, the ACR has better range than the G36C.
The G36C DOES have a higher rate of fire, but I tend to move from cover to cover, and care the most about winning head to head battles.
I had to test that the G36C did in fact not kill in two headshots and one hit elsewhere on long range:
Thermal G36C with the hold breath proficiency.

Then add in the fact that ACR one hit kills on all ranges in hardcore... and you have no reason not to use it if you're into hardcore.

The ACR's marginally higher damage on both short and long range DOES affect my performance a whole lot.
It's better recoil pattern helps, too.

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Tue, 27 Mar 2012 00:39:47 GMT

See 3:29 for the result of ACR testing. ACR is one of 2 automatic guns in the game that markedly benefit from Kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y31tJwk25ps&list=UUEHf6KUY7Zw7hlXQ7hDemwQ&index=1 &feature=plcp

I like the G36. Because of the recoil pattern (straight up) and the shape of character models (tall and narrow), the G36 is probably tied (with MP7) for most accurate gun against actual opponents. (Unless you always aim for the head ) Shoot 'em in the, err, groin, and let the recoil walk up the body for consistant hits. Unless the target is really far away and really small.

The ACR's 50/35/50 recoil pattern is deceptive in that it causes a lot of side to side missed shots.

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Mon, 26 Mar 2012 23:59:35 GMT

adw1983 wrote:

1: ACR (Needs kick to work)

ACR needs kick to work? How does a gun that has no recoil even benefit from kick? That gun should be used with literally any other proficiency. It does not need kick. Using 'Kick' on a gun that doesn't have any recoil to begin with is a waste.

Other than that I would agree with what you said about most other guns.

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 13:01:52 GMT

Indeed.

I can tell you which weapons are the most used weapons / weapons with the average highest KD ratios overall in the game solely from looking at the weapon statistics:

AR:
1: ACR (Needs kick to work)
2: Type 95 (Camper's, patroler's and tactical mover's favorite)
3: M4 (Underappreciated; Very good accuracy)
3: G36C (Too high vertical recoil without kick)
5: Mk14 (Too good, borderline OP)
6: AK47 (Too inaccurate and too low damage on long range to compete with ACR)
7: FAD (Underused because of the late unlock, but is useless too)
8: CM901 (ACR with more recoil, lower long range damage, lower rate of fire and better range)

9: M16
(I have no idea where to place the SCAR-L, but it is on par with M4.)

SMG:
1: MP7 (The most accurate automatic weapon in the game, period)
2: PP90M1 (The best SMG for short range in the game)
3: Irrelevant: Almost not used at all compared to the above; UMP, because it was so good in MW2.
4: P90: Because it was so good in CoD4 and has a larger magazine.

Shotguns:
1: Striker: Spamability coupled with damage, fires faster than USAS 12 by far)
2: USAS 12 (Range coupled with... ... ... Well. Not many people use the USAS 12, but it will still be the second most used shotgun or at the very least the shotgun with the second best KD among it's users when using the weapon.)
3: Unused

Secondary weapons:
1: Akimbo FMG9

2: Stinger
3: RPG
4: FMG9 (Singe FMG9 is better than MP5 on all ranges)

Sniper rifles:

1: Doesn't matter, most snipers are good enough except:
Second least used: AS50
Least used: Dragunov

LMGs:
1: L86 (Accuracy and good reload speed)
2: MK46 (Accuracy and rate of fire)
3: M60 (Damage)

========================

Expected average usage or best KD ratios:
1: MP7

2: PP90M1
3: ACR
4: Type 95 (Placed high because of high KD)
5: Random bolt action sniper used by a quickscoper (average KD will be low)

6: G36C (but the users do worse than those who use M4)

7: Akimbo FMG9

8: Mk 14
9: M4
10: UMP

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Sat, 24 Mar 2012 18:09:01 GMT

What I really would love to see one day in a CoD title is have all the Assualt Rifles equally balance. Maybe all the weapons?

Not as in same fire rate, damage, recoil, etc. But to where the fire rate and damge can go hand in hand.

For example: Gun A - High Damage & Low Fire Rate. Gun B - Low Damage & High Fire Rate. Gun C - Medium Damage & Medium Fire Rate.

Now all you have to do is, change the gun sounds, make them look different and mess with the recoil to move different ways on certain guns. Simple. There's no down side to this. No one would ever have to worry about using a certain gun because one is too powerful or not using one that is too underpowerd.

Im sure this is what they normally try to do, but maybe it doesn't always work out. Now before you go think im one of those whiners that complain about OP guns or X guns, im not. I actually think IW did an amazing job at balancing most of the guns in MW3 more than any other CoD game ever made. Dispite the ones that everyone hates.

Im a big fan of using different weapons all the time and im sure everyone would be if they didn't have to worry about OP and X guns in every CoD game.

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Sat, 24 Mar 2012 01:32:13 GMT

Anoreo: I'd love to see that, but I worry it would be a tad OP. the single 1887 is definitely underpowered, but simply double the firepower on a weapon that is meant to be fired from the hip seems a bit much; akimbo on the 1887 would have to come with a slight drawback, like the RoF penalty on the akimbo machine pistols. Maybe slightly decreased damage with akimbo

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:48:06 GMT

I'm hoping that someone important is monitoring this thread. I'd really like a buff to the pump shotguns. They need more up close consistency.

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:07:31 GMT

eww no more akimbo. takes no skill.

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:28:22 GMT

hollywood:What if they kept the Model in its current state, but brought back akimbo? Yeah, I'm dreaming here, but a guy can always try!

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:20:04 GMT

yeah i noticed that too. The craziest thing was the MW2 Spas did 40-20 damage without stopping power as a SECONDARY. The MW3 Spas does 30-14 as a PRIMARY. It was 25-14 before the patch. The problem most people had was that shotguns were secondaries. I think most people would be completely fine with shotguns as powerful as those in MW2 as long as they were primaries and had no akimbo.

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 05:59:58 GMT

Yes, this is exactly the reason why shotguns are terrible in this game.

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 05:52:24 GMT

Hi guys, I just posted this on the TU and Hotfix Notes page, but I guess it probably belongs here more, so:

Just FYI, shotguns don't even have normal damage in MW3, they actually have less. In MW2 the base damage (without stopping power) for of the SPAS-12 in MW2 was 40-20, in MW3 it is 30-14. The Model 1887 was 35-20 without stopping power, in MW3 it is 30-20.

Basically they nerfed the damage on all the shotguns, so they were even weaker than the shotguns without stopping power in previous games. With damage, they only become just as powerful as the gun without stopping power in previous games.

This is the reason they are terrible, it has nothing to do with lag, only to do with the fact that without damage, you have to land 4/8 pellets on target to get a one shot kill. Given shotguns random pellet spread, this was an absolutely horrible balancing idea, as it causes them to become very inconsistent even in point blank ranges.

In my opinion it should always be 3-pellets in close range without damage, gradually dropping off towards medium range. With damage it should be 2 pellets gradually dropping off towards medium.

G IH A IN ID II, please at least bring up the fact that shotguns need 4 out of 8/9 pellets to hit in order to get a one shot kill at the moment, with the weapons team. Thanks.

Comments?

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 03:31:10 GMT

Actually the zoom is the same from Iron to Red Dot; however! how close the RDS is on the weapon may create the impression of more or less zoom.

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 03:19:56 GMT

Type 95: Decrease damage to 40-30. And decrease firerate from 1000 to 925 (Same as the MW2 FAMAS)

ACR 6.8: Hip-fire buff.

Extended Mags: Give the same amount of ammo as if they didn't have Extended Mags. Or decrease your Mobility to 90% because you are carrying more ammo.

Red Dot Sight: Should not vary in how far you zoom in. Ex: The CM901 zooms in farther with the RDS than the ACR 6.8. The RDS looks smaller on the ACR, but that's only because you're not zoomed in enough. I think all RDS on ARs should zoom in just like the Type 95...not too far away from your screen(ACR), but also not too close(CM901).

Re: Official Weapon Balance Feedback Thread.

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 03:12:12 GMT

Alexanaxela wrote:

it doesn't get that much more consistent, but eh apparently they're working like infinity ward wants them to

It's disappointing that this what IW considered "balanced."

I mean people have to go through 26 levels of frustration just to get a slightly better shotgun at close range.

Why not give a sniper rifle a damage proficiency? Let's say before the sniper achieves "damage", any shot to the chest is always a hitmarker.