Community: Message List

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 21:52:28 GMT

Thanks for looking into this.

So I ran a couple tests.

First was the eye test because this is how I noticed the potential issue. Friend and did side by side shot comparisons between the p90 vs M4-UMP45-Scar- and G36c.

Using a timer and some math, we found that we were not "seeing" things and that there may be some validity to the issue.

Then, I went to the denkirson forums, a well respected forum that does statistical and data based analysis on games like Mw3 (special mention to symthic.com) and found the chart that one of the members posted. Not sure about the details of his test but it proved that he, like us noticed a disparity. He mentions other guns in the chart but they're not that concerning as they're not necessarily hampered by the disparity. The P90 however being a rushing tool is severely affected.

Did the producer notice a problem with the stat that affects its performance in game?

teanah wrote:

teanah wrote:

Pjmara5 wrote:

Hello Teanah (and community),

I was messing around with the p90 last night and noticed that it shot slower than most ARs (M4, Scar L, G36c). I did some tests in private match and was astonished to find out that I wasn't tripping.

Did some research and found out that in game, the P90 currently shoots at 716 rpm, way lower than the intended 857 rpm published in the game's official guide and stat charts everywhere. Furthermore, this test chart that a fellow community member was kind enough to provide proves my point.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0Av5t-DE1i_xfdE5qd Ug4MkhPRFhBWmo3MnhHV09GeGc&output=html

Check out the data for the P90. It shows that there is indeed a huge disparity. Granted, there are minor disparities for other guns, but the P90's RPM in particular isn't even close to reflecting what the devs intended.

@Teanah - Could you kindly bring this up as something to research and perhaps hotfix.

Thanks!
I'll ask our producer first thing tomorrow!
Hey so, how did you measure the rate of fire?

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 10 Oct 2012 00:54:57 GMT

Hello Teanah (and community),

I was messing around with the p90 last night and noticed that it shot slower than most ARs (M4, Scar L, G36c). I did some tests in private match and was astonished to find out that I wasn't tripping.

Did some research and found out that in game, the P90 currently shoots at 716 rpm, way lower than the intended 857 rpm published in the game's official guide and stat charts everywhere. Furthermore, this test chart that a fellow community member was kind enough to provide proves my point.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0Av5t-DE1i_xfdE5qd Ug4MkhPRFhBWmo3MnhHV09GeGc&output=html

Check out the data for the P90. It shows that there is indeed a huge disparity. Granted, there are minor disparities for other guns, but the P90's RPM in particular isn't even close to reflecting what the devs intended.

@Teanah - Could you kindly bring this up as something to research and perhaps hotfix.

Thanks!

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Fri, 31 Aug 2012 01:54:14 GMT

Mmacola1 wrote:

Pjmara5 wrote:

Oh and Teanah, I hope you saw my response to the MW2 strat vs Sit Rep Pro question you asked me earlier. Ghandi closed the door on adjusting SRP yesterday, but I do hope you can somehow help him and the others recognize the problem and help increase the possibility of revisiting the balance.

Thanks!

The HBS is enough. Since PR helps the whole team, it would be unfair to have a tier three perk block it. Dead Silence would be extremelly powerful if this was the case. Playing SnD without DS would be suicide.

I'm left to wonder if they would even consider making the change though.. sadly. I'm not engineering savvy enough to guess how much code work needs to be done. It will require a text change to Dead Silence as well so.. yeah. For now, I'm just being an SRP whore.

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Fri, 31 Aug 2012 01:24:09 GMT

Oh and Teanah, I hope you saw my response to the MW2 strat vs Sit Rep Pro question you asked me earlier. Ghandi closed the door on adjusting SRP yesterday, but I do hope you can somehow help him and the others recognize the problem and help increase the possibility of revisiting the balance.

Thanks!

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Fri, 31 Aug 2012 01:22:12 GMT

Foxhound-Pro wrote:

I've never heard of "Denk" until today. It seems fun, but its just another gametype I wouldn't play.

True.

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 22:57:56 GMT

teanah wrote:

What was your strategy in MW2?

Hi teanah. So in MW2, people with Sit Rep were not immune to the heartbeat sensor, mainly because Ninja was the perk that countered it. Not the case in MW3 since assassin is the counter perk to HBSensor.. so you could easily combine assassin and sitrep to a set.

That + crouch walking combined was a good way to counter Sit Rep back in the day. Now, if dead silence was required to counter Motion and Heartbeat sensors, then the issue wouldn't be as severe as it is right now.

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:35:56 GMT

G IH A IN ID II wrote:

Hello all,

The last thing I'd wish for is this forum in which I've participated since the game launched to fall into a back and forth spiral of negativity. If people wish to criticize me then honestly I'm thick skinned, I'd rather have you voicing your displeasure at me than at each other. I'll add that a civil criticism causes me to reflect more upon what is said than one that isn't constructively phrased. These I pay less mind to.

The dialogue we have undertaken here has been a new venture for the studio, something we haven't done before through this channel. I and the community team want to continue this trend. It is only through communication via all social channels that we can understand the wants and needs of the purchasers of our games. Even then we unfortunately only scratch the surface of our player base. Speaking personally my goal has always been to strive to improve as a game developer. I've learnt things here that I know will influence my thinking in the future.

During this process many changes, highlighted or suggested through interaction with the members who spend time posting here have helped us improve MW3 in my opinion and given us much food for thought and lessons for the future.

Occasionally it becomes time to make a call on a matter that will not be to everyone's liking. Not everyone can agree all the time. It's like asking what's the greatest live performance by a band, or who is the greatest soccer player in history, or whether Mario on the NES, SNES or GameCube was the best.

It has been my job to make these calls on MW3. We've always tried to listen to opinions and explain why the decision falls one way or another. For what it's worth there are often disagreements internally within the studio.

I humbly hope we can continue the back and forth in a spirit of community. We are still working on the game and striving to improve the major issues you highlight and we all agree I think are priority problems.

Respectfully,

G IH A IN ID II, MW3 forum member.

Understood sir. As much as the Sit Rep Pro decision has caused me to lose all faith in Infinity Ward's philosophies and ability to deliver a competent product, I definitely support having healthy and mature conversations about things.

Hopefully you stand by your word and actually learn lessons for your next game. You guys have a lot to live up to, given the way Treyarch balances and approaches their versions of Call of Duty. Do I think you guys will succeed? NO.. and that's being honest. You will get the sales, but trust me, you will fail at pleasing the community yet again. I do hope you guys finally prove me and the rest of the community wrong though.. but as of now, the fact that you cannot see the impact of having uncounterable sound whoring is enough for me to question your design philosophies.

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 02:48:14 GMT

kastro187420 wrote:

So... while you guys are willing to look into Perks, how about looking into Flak Jacket and Flak Jacket Pro and buffing them to their Black Ops counter parts (Flak Jacket and Tac Mask Pro from Black Ops).

Not gonna happen brother. Believe me. A ton of people have asked for a similar adjustment and have been shunned. We've come to a point where the game, mechanics wise, is at functionality lock. In layman's terms, if it's not a bug, dev doesn't care.

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 02:24:01 GMT

dedicatedserversplease wrote:

Thanks for looking Ghandi. I appreciate the effort, and taking of time to check on this. I guess I just need to stay away from future IW titles if I want any semblence of a competitive COD title, especially in SnD. Everything IW has done has catered toward the casual/noob gamer and has obliterated any skill gap there possibly could be. The next IW title will probably only have one button to press, like this. This new super controller developed by IW will be included in their Hardened/Prestige edition. Mark my words, it will be marketed as revolutionary to the gaming world. Thanks again.

Could not have said it any better. If anything, what my friend said is starting to resonate and make sense now. And I quote "Infinity Ward is the type of company who would rejoice if people with skill stop playing their games. More stupid and mediocre customers = more money and less work to have to be done by them."

I feel like an idiot for defending IW all these years.....

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 30 Aug 2012 01:58:01 GMT

G IH A IN ID II wrote:

As promised we had our QA team test MW2 and MW3 extensively today on console platforms using a variety of headphones.

The unanimous opinion from all testers was that there was no discernible difference between the way Ninja Pro vs. SRP in MW2 and DS vs. SRP in MW3 both in terms of functionality or sound.

We have surmised, therefore, that this is working as designed and will not be making changes to the system at this time.

I know this will frustrate some of you. I wish we could please everyone.

Cheers,

G IH A IN ID II

Thanks for the quick response.

It saddens me to see Call of Duty being blatantly made mediocre by decisions like such. I am but a single member of the community and in many ways, I feel like an ant in the grand scheme of things, but nevertheless.. I'll do what's right. I hereby give up on IW Call of duty games and will no longer buy 4 copies (yes, I give 3 away to less fortunate friends in the Philippines) of every game from her on out.

As for MW3, I'll keep playing.. like a god damn whore. Sit Rep pro and all classes with the intention of making life miserable for my opponents. Maybe then more people will grieve and ask for a reconsideration of the design. Oh yeah, ban? reset? Not worried about it because per GHANDI's notes, the perk is working as intended. Childish response? Maybe so... or it may be the most mature response yet as it shows the ability to adapt to circumstances.

Good day to you all.

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 22:48:52 GMT

BuckshotBlender wrote:

Dead silence users are quieter than non dead silence users. You can definitely tell a difference. Non dead silence users sould like elephants.

Uhhh.. no. There's no difference. believe me, a bunch of us have tested it

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 22:34:44 GMT

G IH A IN ID II wrote:

Datura wrote:

G IH A IN ID II wrote:

dedicatedserversplease wrote:

teanah wrote:

Pjmara5 wrote:

Really still hoping for an adjustment to Sit Rep Pro. I do not understand why the decision was made to make it counterable only by crouch walking. I try not to quit and give up on a session but I keep running into people who abuse it by camping in corners. Miss the days when Dead Silence allowed you to sneak past them and increased your chances of killing them.
Please consider.
The decision was made to fulfill a fan-made request-- and that's what we have now with sitrep pro. Apologies! I know you don't like it, but it's also really difficult to make 100% of our fans happy at any one time; such is life when people favor personal interests/play styles
Teanah, it may be fine in other game modes but in SnD sitrep has ruined the game mode. Now you have people crouch walking everywhere whereas before people with dead silence could run around. It took the competitiveness directly out of SnD. Also Sitrep was not like this in MW2 or other games. You guys completely ruined the integrity of a gametype. I am a longtime SnD player, its all I have played for 5 years now. Now its not fun as everyone is just waiting to hear someone before they move.
In MW2 Ninja Pro allowed you to walk silently. SitRep Pro magnified the sound of enemy footsteps. Those running Ninja Pro were magnified to the same level as your friendly teammates. That is what should be occurring now.

Cheers,

G IH A IN ID II

Sorry G IH A IN ID II but your totally wrong, skip to and listen between 1.35 to 3.50 on this vid, can't get clearer than this:

So basically SRP does NOT make DS sound like normal footsteps "as in MW2". The whole SRP thing doesnt bother me as I'm not an SnD player and I don't need SRP as a crutch like the people who defend it on this forum, but your best checking the parameters for MW2 SRP, because according to the above vid the MW3 SRP has clearly been incorrectly implemented and has negatively affected SnD. Also bear in mind its not the first time you've got patches/nerfs/buffs totally wrong unfortunately.

PS- Please fix the netcode/matchmaking, cheers!

So unless I'm mistaken this video clearly shows that Ninja Pro users were audible when using SRP in MW2. The maker suggests without SRP equipped Ninja Pro users were not audible, unless running until perhaps five feet away in his words.

With SRP on they are heard at a greater distance on the video.

That is what the code and design was.

We are now left with a discussion about what the level of volume and consequently distance at which enemy users/non users and friendlies are heard is.

The audio mix in MW3 is completely different to that in MW2, we also have sound occlusion at play, so the code can be running exactly as intended.

I'll keep you posted on what we discover.

Cheers,

G IH A IN ID II

Thanks Ghandi. Might I suggest taking the relationship between recon and dead silence as an example when making a decision.

DS counters recon, but only to a certain extent. Hope a happy medium is decided.

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 20:03:56 GMT

Also GHANDI,

I hope that a resolution is made based on user feedback and critical thinking, not on LEGACY (Oh MW2 did this so let's do that!)

Thanks!

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 19:54:45 GMT

dedicatedserversplease wrote:

ghandi thanks for looking into it. i am eagerly awaiting a response. i was already mad when the game came out and the pro version of dead silence negates dead silence itself. what i mean is in or to use the no fall damage you negate dead silence cause it makes a loud thud when landing. its the only pro perk that negates the perk it is attached to in game it just doesnt make any sense.

This is true. I remember that wasn't the case in Black ops.

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 19:42:42 GMT

Mmacola1 wrote:

Simply take a Assassin immunity (such as Heart Beat Sensor immunity) and give it to Dead Silence (as it was in MW2). There. With the risk of being caught, Sitrep would be a more risky perk and therefore, campers would avoid it.

A very smart suggestion. Nuff said! In fact, this is how ninja worked in MW2

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 19:41:15 GMT

Needless to say, if current functionality stays this way, count me in as one of the people who will Troll camp with Sit Rep Pro from here on out. If IW gives people the right to grief others using this method, then why shouldn't I? just saying.

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 19:39:21 GMT

G IH A IN ID II wrote:

Amirror wrote:

I feel SRP works fine as it is. (Even in S&D)
But if you guys really want some kind of improvement and balance for both, consider SRP hearing a DS user at only 0.5x normal footstep volume instead of 1.0x like it is now.
As promised it is being looked into. From a design, and code perspective SRP was always supposed to counter Ninja Pro in MW2.

Cheers,

G IH A IN ID II

Ghandi and IW crew,

I have been harping on this Sit Rep pro issue for quite a bit on twitter and these forums so I’m glad that a bunch of people are starting to rally for a fix. Here are a couple notes for you to consider.

- Sit Rep Pro does not counter Ninja in MW2. Confirmed this today. It was actually SMART design for it to not do that as match pace (especially SND) was perfect since people didn’t have to crouch walk to counter Sit Rep Pro campers.
- Sit Rep Pro has NO counter perk in MW3. A player with a headset can literally equip the perk + Assassin or Blind Eye and camp a corner without consequence.
- With the only effective counter gone (Dead Silence), the level of grief has dramatically increased. Players like myself who love roaming around the map are penalized..... while campers and people who love to sound whore are rewarded with little to no risk on their part. Do you honestly think that’s fair?

I fully support the section of the community that hates the changes that were made to this perk. I hope that you guys consider fixing this as a “parting gift” to the people who have tirelessly supported your game.

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2012 01:10:00 GMT

Really still hoping for an adjustment to Sit Rep Pro. I do not understand why the decision was made to make it counterable only by crouch walking. I try not to quit and give up on a session but I keep running into people who abuse it by camping in corners. Miss the days when Dead Silence allowed you to sneak past them and increased your chances of killing them.

Please consider.

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:51:58 GMT

The faithful still asking for :

1) Lag Comp adjustments.

2) Sit Rep pro adjustments. - Seriously....... I do not comprehend why this was thought to be a smart idea. The number of campers significantly increased after this change.

Re: Modern Warfare 3 Title Update and Hot Fix Discussion

donotreply@activision.com — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 23:52:46 GMT

Is it just me or has everyone else noticed a HUGE influx of campers who take advantage of Sit Rep Pro!?!? It makes me quite sad that these people have been given yet another tool to grief others who are trying to roam around and work on objectives.

I remember candysalexia mention that they're looking into a possible adjustment but haven't heard anything since.

@GHANDI - Is this something you're aware of? If so, could we expect a resolution before this game's lifespan is over? Thanks!